Jordan Kinnick 0:00:08.3: 

All right, we'll go ahead and get started here. Thank you all for joining today. I'm Jordan Kinnick, customer success business partner with Anaplan, been with Anaplan for about three years. I serve several of our large pharmaceutical and life sciences companies. For those in the room that are just unfamiliar with customer success at this point in time, our core mission in customer success is to just proactively pursue a cross-functional alignment across a business, and pursue multi-line business planning. We want to extend our customers' vision into reality, and in my opinion, we have no success with Anaplan unless our customers have success. They're really one for one, they're intertwined together. Today what we want to do is shed some light on one of those success stories, and that being Mike Ravula today. We want to take you into his Anaplan ecosystem, and one of my friends today. Mike Ravula, you want to introduce yourself? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:01:05.9: 

Sure, absolutely. Mikhael Ravula, I lead the Anaplan Center of Excellence at Cardinal Health. I've been here with Cardinal Health for about three years. I come from a consulting background, I worked with Deloitte, I worked with EY, and Lionpoint as well. This is my first industry gig, and man, what a difference between the consulting world and actually being in the industry and planning for a customer like Cardinal Health. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:01:38.5: 

Appreciate it. The goal of the conversation we're going to have on stage today is to really unpack how a COE leader picks up from the very foundational stage they find themselves in when they very first take on the role. We're going to talk about how he sets a vision to evolve into a more well-oiled machine, and one with a vision for integrated planning, one with a vision for a modern UX design. Then how do we start to deliver more measurable value back to the org, and do that through the relationships we build with the business? How we position the Anaplan COE to steer the business strategy and not just reconcile the numbers here. To give you guys all a few themes that we're going to try to stick to, and I want you to engage with us at the end at Q&A, would be how do you become the central nervous system for decision making with Anaplan? That to me is really a shift in culture from just a team of model builders, to a team of product owners with conviction behind what they're building, and an ability to articulate back to the business strategy that should be the next set of steps that we should take. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:02:41.6: 

Two would be relationship building with the business, and this can't be understated. It's something to have the technical prowess with Anaplan, but it's another to be able to communicate a blueprint and a vision of what the organization should build to next, and what use cases should be pursued. Third, this is another thing that I think Mike does so well and I want to portray to other Anaplanners out there, is designing your team culture and building your COE, and making these folks on your team the best version of themselves personally and professionally. How do you do that in a COE? You want to give them the latest cutting edge tools in the Anaplan ecosystem. You want to challenge them to reach their highest level of the Anaplan certification, so making everybody a master Anaplanner, and then third, advertising their great work. This is something I see Mike do, and it's telling the organization about the business impacts they've had, the unique skillsets they've had, and broadcasting that to the rest of the organization. Mike, if you're ready, I'll jump into some questions with you and we'll get going. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:03:44.8: 

Absolutely. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:03:46.3: 

Before we do, do you want to tell the people a little bit about why Cardinal chose Anaplan, what some of your core use cases are today, and general success with it? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:03:56.8: 

Sure. I don't know if you want to talk about Cardinal Health, because we just talked about Cardinal Health as an organization, but if we talk about Anaplan, Anaplan implementation at Cardinal Health. We have multiple use cases, primarily within finance as of right now. We started off with an SG&A model, which helps the entire organization plan for their budget within Anaplan, and then we also deployed a consolidation model to enable all of the different business units to essentially upload all of their forecast data and consolidate all of that forecast data into essentially a central hub for decision making. If I want to go with your central nervous system analogy, it is essentially we're trying to now get data from all of those different nerve endpoints to the brain, right? That's the consolidation model for us, and we have business unit specific rev and COGS models, business unit specific gross net model, so on and so forth as well, that we are basically building towards. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:05:16.3: 

Okay great, I appreciate it. Let's get into the questions here. The first segment I want to start in is this foundational stage that you found yourself in when you very first took the role. Mike, I want you to take us back in time to maybe your first year at Cardinal, and what were a couple indications or inflection points that you found and said, boy, the way we're designed for planning today is just not quite ready for enterprise scale, and our business units really deserve more. What were a couple principles you put in place? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:05:44.5: 

Yes, so it's very interesting. When I first joined Cardinal Health, we immediately saw some major, major problems at Cardinal Health with the way the Anaplan implementation was done at Cardinal Health. There were a couple of models. From a technical perspective, they blew up because of the way that they were designed. I think the backstory there was multiple implementation partners basically coming in, trying to work on one single model together, and then a business unit there used another implementation partner, a business unit somewhere else basically used another implementation partner. They created all of these models in silos, and when all of these models were essentially created in silos, it took a whole lot of effort for us to consolidate the output of all of these models and drive decision making based on these extremely disparate outputs that we were getting from our business units. We built another model called the bridge solution, which was essentially a bridge to nowhere. What that solution tried to do was try to put all of these different pieces together, and almost has a data collection or a data transformation model, if you will, within Anaplan. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:07:19.3: 

It tried to go ahead and spit that data out to other downstream systems, and it was a mess. The root cause is multiple partners building multiple solutions all at the same time, without a central vision or a central strategy. Imagine the left hand going and building a model on its own, the right hand going and building a model on its own, without actually the brain controlling anything within the organization. There was a problem, and we needed to put a stop to that. There was a bunch of technology stuff, or there was a technical optimization piece of it, because I still had to make these models work. I went through, so started with actually stabilizing these models, if you will, because these models were bleeding out of control. What I mean by that is every single forecast cycle of one of our models would blow up and it would go over the space on it. Then there were a couple of quick fixes that we had to do in order to support the forecast, otherwise you could not do a forecast, right? There were just fires everywhere that we essentially had to go in and put out, and while putting out these fires, taking a step back and understanding, hey, I notice a problem here, here and here. I can put out three or four fires by basically redesigning this and rethinking how this model essentially operates. Identifying those root causes effectively, and being able to solution for fixing multiple problems in the right way. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:09:29.7: 

That worked for a bit, but then very soon what we began realizing is what Cardinal Health truly lacked is a centralized vision on how planning should be done at the organization, at that enterprise level. After looking at fixing those models, building the team - we haven't even touched on that - the churn was incredible. The two people who were in my COE before I came in, three months in, gone. Two weeks in, gone. The amount of complexity and what they had to deal with, with these models was overwhelming, and so nobody actually really even wanted to work with the Anaplan Center of Excellence. It was bad, but we had to basically make sure that we got the right people onboarded, people who are in it for the long term, essentially. I did not even have true Anaplan model builders when I started out, so finding those Anaplan model builders. Anyone agree with me: finding good Anaplan model builders is really, really hard, right? I had to basically go ahead and create a strategy for how we are going to staff the Anaplan Center of Excellence. Once that was done, really started to think about, what should the vision for planning for Cardinal Health be like? As we have currently stabilized the ship and now we are looking to scale, what should the vision for a planning center of excellence be at Cardinal Health? That's the place we are in now. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:11:28.2: 

You identified several problems there. I mean, a lack of talent, Mike's got seven or eight different business units that were all originally mergers and acquisitions. All of these seven or eight business units, they've all got their own predisposition to the planning tools that they like. They're accustomed to the way they've always planned, so how did you go about starting to create the relationships necessary within the business and extending yourself beyond just the IT Anaplan Center of Excellence leader, and start to get them on board with the Anaplan way of planning? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:11:59.8: 

Jordan, it helps when you're curious and when you approach things from a learning perspective. I am naturally curious and I want to learn as much as possible about how all of these different businesses work and operate. I'm in there asking a whole bunch of questions, becoming friends, honestly, and giving a listening ear when people are talking about their problems. One thing that I made very clear to every business partner that I work with is I'm not going to be pushing transformation down your throat, but I'm here to understand what your problem is. I can suggest some improvements that you can make to your planning process, and potentially, if you like, I can build a solution out for you in Anaplan. Approaching it in a real humble manner from a learning perspective, and making it explicitly clear that you're there to help, rather than mandate or dictate. If you're going to use the cupcake analogy, just dangling that cupcake in front of them and saying, 'Hey, here's a cupcake. Do you want it? I could customize it a little bit for you.' 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:13:34.0: 

All I need you to do is pick your sprinkles, like we heard in the last session, right? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:13:37.6: 

Exactly, but it just comes with that, hey, if you're hungry, I have a cupcake over here. If you want it, I can offer it to you; if you don't want it, sure. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:13:49.4: 

To me it's about just jumping in, just diving in. Not being afraid to have the more difficult conversations, but coming with your own point of view, your own wealth of experience. 'This is how I've done it for other groups within Cardinal, we can do it for you too.' 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:14:02.0: 

Yes. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:14:04.4: 

Let's do a little storytelling here. I want to hear about what was one first proof in the value moment where you could say, 'Boy, I think my strategy is working here. My approach is working,' and was there just an early win that you could share with the group here that instilled confidence in Cardinal with Anaplan? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:14:22.4: 

Yes, so one of the models, one of the business units that I was working with, that was the one with a whole bunch of technical issues. These models that I was working with, if I remember correctly, it was one use case. We were using two models for that one use case. If I was to go ahead and if I built that model, I would have been able to just do it within one model, but I had two models for one use case. They were 500GB in size and 300GB in size, because of the way that those models were architected. What that translated to is when users were using the model and they were pushing a button to run an action, it took them an hour for that action, to wait on that action to actually execute and pull data from model A to model B. Once we optimized the model and I opened the model up, I clearly remember being with our business partner. I was basically pushing that button, and she goes, 'Stop, stop, stop! Please don't push that button, please don't push that button!' 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:15:57.4: 

I remember that. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:15:59.1: 

'It's going to take us one hour to run, and other people are actually putting data in, please don't push that button. That's going to halt our planning process,' because we are enclosed at that point of time. I was like, 'Hey, I know that was what it was like, but I optimized it.' I pushed the button and the data from model A to model B was there in 30 seconds, and she was mind blown. She was like, 'Mike, how'd you do that? Is all the data in?' I was like, 'Yes, all the data is in.' This is how Anaplan should work, if it is built well. In between that, we actually had a transition from a Teradata database to SAP as well, where we basically can plan on customers. The customer IDs between these two systems were different as well, so we had to go through an entire process of changing every single list and hierarchy member and module within Anaplan that this customer hierarchy essentially impacted. It was a very hard ask, and we had to do this while keeping the model live as well. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:17:33.2: 

We effectively transitioned to SAP while the model was running. We performed all of this optimization while the model was running. I guess that's when people started to take notice and say, okay, there is something here with the Anaplan Center of Excellence, and the way that things are happening now in the Anaplan Center of Excellence versus how things were previously. We slowly started capitalizing on that momentum, building rapport with businesses, building credibility, which is so important when you think about an Anaplan Center of Excellence. Remember, Anaplan Centers of Excellence usually do not sit with businesses, right? They are considered a technology transformation team which kind of sits outside of businesses. There's this view that, hey, they know their technology, but they don't know us. Building credibility through some of these achievements technically, through trying to understand, building rapport and all of that, I don't know, somehow is coming together and we are seeing more and more interest. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:18:59.2: 

Okay, so you're able to create some consistency across these business units and their adoption, their satisfaction with Anaplan. That just shows that it's important to keep track of the value outcomes, the tangible outcomes that you've been able to produce, so that you can tell the next business unit, the next merger and acquisition that Cardinal takes on. At that point, to take a step forward here from our work together, we're starting to gain momentum towards an application-first strategy. Where do applications, in your point of view, slot into your blueprint, slot into your vision for where you're going to take Cardinal next, and really enhance what I would call the value generation engine that is Anaplan? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:19:38.7: 

I think when you talk about strategy, strategy is defined at the top. Whenever I hear our CEO and CFO talk about what we want to do, they always talk about simplification and standardization. Right now, all the different business units basically do their own thing in a non-standardized way, and they make it complex. Now, with applications, I see that we have 80 per cent of all of our planning processes that are essentially critical for an organization already pre-built. You can say that once we go towards an app-based approach, we are 80 per cent of the way there in terms of standardization. When you think about simplification, all of that complexity that these business units actually try to bake in to some of their Excel workbooks just because it's interesting, just because hey, adding chocolate into that cupcake batter is going to make it a little better, they don't necessarily need it. Yes, it's unique, but at the same time, where's the value? A dessert is a dessert at the end of the day, right? Going to an app-based approach is automatically going to take out all of these unnecessary extraneous planning methodologies, processes maybe, and go towards a more simple approach towards planning. I see that that achieves both simplification and standardization for Cardinal Health, so that's the approach that we would love to go towards. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:21:45.7: 

Yes, in customer success, when we think about value assurance, one of those key pillars is change management. I think just from the recent conversations we've had with a number of your business units, the applications are making change management seem more approachable, and certainly seem faster to get to the end result. It's helping us in our conversations to extend those business relationships and really uncover, what are the pain points that each of these individual groups are experiencing today? They're more willing to talk to us as a result of these applications that we're introducing into the market here, so seeing some early success, I think. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:22:19.9: 

Yes, and I think that 'show, not tell' element, where we are able to show 80 per cent of the application already built out in front of you. That changes the entire dynamic of how we are even having conversations with the different business units at Cardinal Health right now. In the past it was, I don't know, maybe a PowerPoint deck somewhere that enabled these conversations, but being able to actually go into the application. I know that I drive you guys crazy, but just getting all of these people in, to get them to view what the integrated financial planning application looks like. Take a look at what the operational workforce planning application looks like. We are able to actually get the people into these meetings where they see the application, ask questions about the application. Then Rodney, who is great, he's like, 'Oh yes, we have that within the application. Long range planning? Here you go, here's how you do long range planning.' It's not a PowerPoint deck. You actually go into these applications and see how long range planning looks like, and you're able to envision your process automatically. That's been huge for us. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:23:51.7: 

It's really helping us build our partnership together, and allows us to bring in our best thought leaders, our best solution consultants to the table, and tell their point of view on how we've done it with other customers and how it can benefit their groups too. Yes, I think that's awesome. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:24:04.8: 

Now, if you have a great customer success manager like Jordan, you can bug him and ask him to demo all of these applications for you in your organizations, and get those business unit leaders in. Get those finance business partners in, get those HR business partners in, and have them take a look at the application rather than a PowerPoint deck. That's been huge for us. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:24:32.4: 

With that, let me segue us into our second section here, which is on the far right, the orange one. It's, how do you start to build your culture? How do you start to expand your Anaplan team with new model builders? This is where I want to bring a new phrase to the table today, and it's the retirement of the term COE, or Center of Excellence, and it's the term the Innovation Hub. How do you get your team to be relied on by the organization to provide decision making insights that you can bring to the table, to bring business strategy points of view? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:25:05.0: 

Not the Innovation Hub, Planning Innovation Hub, right? 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:25:07.7: 

Planning Innovation Hub, yes. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:25:09.6: 

Because, hey, we plan with Anaplan, and it's Planning Innovation Hub, right? I think one of the key things that I have been constantly thinking about is how we think about planning in Anaplan, what the role of model builder is in Anaplan, is fundamentally going to change with a) applications, and b) AI. In order to be successful, if we remember back to the keynote, 90 per cent of the value that a model builder is essentially going to be able to deliver is going to go away. It's that ten per cent that they really, really need to hone in on and understand, how do you think about planning, rather than how do you think about model building? How do you understand business and how business thinks about planning, so that you can leverage Anaplan features and AI and apps to enable businesses to use technology to optimize their planning processes? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:26:35.4: 

I've been really trying to get my model builders to call themselves something other than model builders, because the moment you start calling them model builders, they go into almost like a technology zone, and they're constantly thinking about tech. Rebranded them and we started calling them product owners, or planning product owners, essentially, giving them the leverage to say, hey, you're building an end-to-end planning product. You need to know what's happening in Anaplan, but you also need to know what's happening downstream in Tableau. You also need to know what's happening downstream in Power BI. You also need to know where the data is coming from. Teaching them, hey, this is how the architecture of a planning solution looks like, and Anaplan is a small part of it, but apart from that, this is what the business is trying to do. One of the things that we did to practically enable this is we started to ask our model builders to take their model and redesign all of it in the new UX, because some of our models were in the old UX. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:28:13.6: 

I asked them to basically step-by-step list out all of the different steps that are taking place within the Anaplan models, within the new UX application, and put that together in a process well and in Lucidchart. That enabled them to a) systematically say this is everything that our business partners are doing within the Anaplan application. Two, this is their end-to-end process, because this is what they are doing in Anaplan, versus this is what is happening after they get out of Anaplan. I enable them to document every single thing in Lucidchart. The other cool thing that we did was in Lucidchart, every step in Lucidchart, you can right click on it and there's a URL link, and they can basically click on it and go into the Anaplan model to see what that process step is, within the entire flow of the business process. It was hard, but slowly by assimilation, our model builders started to slowly transition from being just technical model builders, to feeling that they actually knew what the business process was. Then slowly, I think a long way to go, planning is an ever evolving process. They are able to have these conversations with the finance teams that they work with and with other teams that they work with, and ask those more in-depth questions. It's a journey. We are nowhere near perfection, but we'll always work towards it. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:30:31.8: 

You've obviously built out a stellar team here. Your coaching goes a long way with them, standardizing some of their processes, but a question I get a lot from customers is, depending on the scale of a new use case you may be looking to implement, or an expansion to an existing use case, how do you personally go about determining, how many model builders do I need? Do I go with a partner or Anaplan professional services? How do I think about how many onshore versus offshore people I want on my team ultimately? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:31:01.0: 

I think it really depends upon what your vision is for the Anaplan Center of Excellence, and it's very critical that you understand what it is you're building your Anaplan Center of Excellence for. We chose to have most of our Anaplan Centers of Excellence be offshore. What that essentially meant or means is we are always going to use implementation partners to build out new use cases for us. With the app-based approach that we are going to be taking, we are going to have to use implementation partners anyway to enable those apps. That works out really well for us. The only thing that I tell most implementation partners - no, all implementation partners, is that we have to have someone from the Anaplan Center of Excellence in there with you building while you're doing things, so that once you leave, we are able to actually sustain this build. For us, the decision is very simple. We always implement using partners, but we are essentially starting to think about how we're going to sustain during the build phase itself, by incorporating our COE model builders. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:32:28.6: 

I think we're learning from partners as well, and what kind of people they bring to the table, and that influences who you pick for your own team. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:32:36.5: 

Correct. For these guys, for my model builders, it's an amazing opportunity to work with the best and learn from the best. That enables them to be better, personal development, professional development, everything in between.  

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:32:58.7: 

One thing you do that I love, that I've taken notice of, is you will occasionally build a newsletter that you send out to the organization, where you literally put a picture of one of your guys in there and explain what he's had success with. What have his business outcomes been for the organization? You advertise them and build them up and they appreciate that, and I think more outfits should do that. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:33:18.8: 

Yes, so we had this tabloid, and the reason why we started to even send that tabloid out is twofold. Apart from the communication piece of it, I am getting my model builders, my model builders actually do this tabloid, and I've started to get them using AI, Copilot essentially, to actually build that tabloid out. I don't have to worry about grammatical errors, so we basically tell Copilot our transformation story, have it create that into a tabloid for us, and that's teaching them skills like prompt engineering a little bit. Getting them used to AI and technology, because with CoModeler, with CoPlanner, these are the things that they will need to get acclimatized to doing. I just started them off on that journey with the tabloid, and every single tabloid we call out people who are doing well, just building up the team culture, the team morale and so on and so forth. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:34:40.2: 

Yes, I think that's beautiful. Last question on the people part of your team, then we'll move on to the next section here, I think people want to know, when you're going to add somebody to your team, what are you looking for from a human trait perspective? Is it human integrity? Is it a specific Anaplan skills, or enthusiasm they have for Anaplan? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:35:01.7: 

I think it's definitely intelligence, enthusiasm, and integrity. Those are the three qualities that I look for. Now, screening for those is extremely tough. I guess the intelligence part of it, a lot of it comes from communication and all of that. The enthusiasm, I like to always to ask a question during my interview process: what is your favorite new Anaplan feature? There are guys who cannot stop talking about what this new Anaplan feature that they're so excited about is. That's my proxy for enthusiasm. Integrity, I don't know, that's the toughest one, but a lot of behavioral interview questions, so on and so forth. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:36:03.1: 

That's great. Speaking of products that people are excited about, the Anaplan features coming out that people are excited about, obviously AI and specific tools like agentic analyst, CoPlanner, CoModeler, these are creating a lot of buzz in the Anaplan circles today. I know you're passionate about these personally and professionally, so how do you see the upcoming release - and I'll let you pick either the analyst or CoModeler - just fundamentally changing how you're driving outcomes for Cardinal with your use cases? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:36:33.0: 

I think the future of planning is agentic. I'm still learning. Everyone I think now is still learning about how all of these different things work. Understanding what this new technology is more than anything else, how it can be applicable to optimize planning solutions, and just being in that mindset and constantly thinking about it, and constantly thinking about new use cases that you can apply agentic AI for. I guess that's how I think about it as of right now. It's still learning, it's new. I'm not going to say I'm a thought leader out there, but just being in the space, knowing, understanding. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:37:28.0:  

I think with any one of your business units, If we looked at the revenue and COGS gross margin use cases, there's always some ancillary Excel spreadsheets coming off of those. My opinion is I think CoModeler can start to ingest some of those Excel spreadsheets and help us to extend our Anaplan models to further automate their processes, so that's how I'm going to… 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:37:47.3: 

Yes, absolutely. We talked about that, and that's a very, very interesting use case for us. There are business units who have all of these Excel workbooks, and would we be able to actually ingest these Excel workbooks into CoModeler and have CoModeler build out a bespoke model based on these Excel workbooks? Which gets us around 80 per cent of the way there. If CoModeler is going to be able to do that, it opens up so many possibilities for us, in terms of being able to scale and adopt and all of that, so we'll see. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:38:36.3: 

Okay, another question for you here. There's going to be an Anaplan leader in the room today that starts tomorrow from a less than utopian state. If you had to start over with your Cardinal career, your Anaplan career, what is one piece of advice you would give that person that's in similar shoes to you? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:38:54.5: 

Coming from a consulting background, I essentially thought, hey, it's implement projects, implement projects. It was intensity rather than consistency. I would basically say, hey, dial down on the intensity, focus more on the consistency. It's a long journey, planning transformation is never ending, so be prepared to run a marathon and not a sprint. That's what I would tell myself, because I started out that way. I started out sprinting, but soon I realized that, hey, we're in it for the long haul. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:39:34.6: 

That's good advice. I think we've just got a couple of minutes left, but I want to get to one more question with you. There's kind of a North Star that I always aim for with my customers, and when I put it in terms of Cardinal Health, your SG&A expenses, your revenue are in the tens of billions of dollars here. How do you think about setting yourself up at Cardinal to start measuring and monetizing the impact of just small incremental changes to an improvement to forecasting accuracy, reporting accuracy, and even measuring a downstream P&L impact from that? 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:40:08.6: 

Comes with standardization, honestly. Standardized planning processes number one, standardized KPIs, and standardized decision making. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:40:17.5: 

Simple as that. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:40:18.1: 

Simple as that. 

 

Jordan Kinnick 0:40:19.3: 

All right. I appreciate you all spending the time with us, and I hope you got something from the conversation today. 

 

Mikhael Ravula 0:40:25.0: 

Thank you. 

 

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